I love this Robyn and the idea of an aggadic Jew! I've been attempting to read the Torah faithfully week by week this year - plus commentary etc. - which leaves me questioning how anyone can think it is literally word-for-word Divine. (I've recently read the 3rd, or is it fourth?, rendition of the "she's my sister, not my wife" story.) But at the same time I also love the Talmudic insistence that it IS and that we can find meaning and value in every word, in every letter. Both/and.
Have you listened to Answers WithHeld? It is a generally wonderful podcast but I think it's the episode "Why Does The Torah Allow Slavery?" which specifically talks about how the Torah retells itself and the insight we can glean from this. Also recommend "Was The World Really Created In Six Days?" because it talks about stories and narrative and what makes the Torah different from Horton Hears A Who. (And the whole thing. It's excellent.)
First, I don’t think the question should be “is the torah divine?” Because I think to be Jewish you have to find a way to answer “yes”. If you answer that question with a no - it’s hard, if not impossible, to be part of a Jewish community. I think the more interesting and relevant and important question is “in what ways is this divine and why and what does it mean for us today that it is?” It’s not actually obvious and clear what someone means by the term “divine” just by using it. The word divine is a placeholder for whatever that person’s theological beliefs are. I personally think the torah can be “divine” to an atheist- but their definition of how they understand divine is different. I know atheists might be offended by that statement but I think the Jewish atheists I know who maintain a respect for the torah are just using different words to describe the same feeling. I know this also feels opposite to how it should go cause some other religions prioritize on belief and theology to a greater extent. But I think it’s quite Jewish to say “we agree the torah is divine but everyone has a different way of understanding how and why and what we mean by that.”
Second, I am familiar with that podcast but haven’t heard every episode. I will have to go back and look for those you mentioned.
I really enjoyed how you are able to put such complex topics into such fun reads. A fantastic piece!
I am curious as to what your thoughts are on a Divinely hyperlinked text as opposed to an evolving text itself. I must admit I do not subscribe to the multiple authorship theory but I always read with an open mind.
Thanks! And thank you giving it consideration - I tried to be respectful towards all sides while still making my argument - and I know that can be a fine line. I do try to keep an open mind as well. If the text was not just divinely inspired as I frame it for myself- but truly and literally written at one time and by one hand- I would understand that to mean that it was written with intentionally conflicting stories to model the importance of conversation and debate which follows and is shown in later texts. I don’t read hebrew myself- so can only trust experts- but it would seem to me that many can agree there are different voices and styles in the Torah- the argument is just why and when they got there. And I understand that to be a valid view. We can never truly know the past. I am not so certain that I through out that possibility entirely.
My point here was that I understand my general view to be a bit less-obvious for some and I wanted to try to lay out the pieces together for others to at least consider. When I say that I generally lean toward the “different words were written at different times” theory - I am told I must be an atheist and secular. When I say, I do think that the words were divinely inspired, just that some people take some things too literally, and that the stories do hold meaning- that does not fit into most definitions of atheist or secular. Haha. Story to me is the vehicle through which the community of Jews across time have created meaning and touched divinity. And while that’s not going to be the focus of every post of mine - I felt it something to be transparent about as I try to write a blog about Jewish Storytelling.
I like the idea of an aggada Jew, even when the stories are bizarre or violent. I don’t think I’d be happy following all halachic laws.
Growing up, I was forced to accept that the Bible is literal truth, and that caused me great psychological distress. To this day I still can struggle with taking things too literally because of that mentality.
One of the reasons I love Judaism so much is that everything can be questioned and studied, but even so I think that should only go so far, otherwise our foundational text is rendered meaningless.
I take a rather secular view of the Torah, but I still believe it is a living text that has survived thousands of years and guides the Jewish people towards more meaningful lives, and that’s good enough for me.
I really admire your penmanship and this essay was no stranger to your unique ability to communicate well. Though I’m aligned with the Muslim faith, there are always, what I call ‘transferable’ ideas, hypotheses or schools of thought between faith-based traditions. In the Golden Age of Islam, there was fierce debate on the creation of the Qur’an as a divine literary masterpiece (perhaps even God’s magnum opus, albeit in the Arabic language) or as a spoken commentary/spoke word, again of Divine origin, so akin to speech or narration as events unfolded. Now, I am all for debate and discourse and perhaps even ideological pluralism, but it appears some dissenters were jailed for entertaining diverging views (Imam Hanbal), which I find extremist. Either way, a very stimulating analysis of the genesis of a timeless scripture!
Thank you!! I am not as familiar with the version of this debate within Islam - though it makes sense that there would be a similarly long and complicated history of varied opinions- so thank you for sharing. That is fascinating. We can each only write from what we know - but I am very glad that you found it relatable and relevant!
I love this Robyn and the idea of an aggadic Jew! I've been attempting to read the Torah faithfully week by week this year - plus commentary etc. - which leaves me questioning how anyone can think it is literally word-for-word Divine. (I've recently read the 3rd, or is it fourth?, rendition of the "she's my sister, not my wife" story.) But at the same time I also love the Talmudic insistence that it IS and that we can find meaning and value in every word, in every letter. Both/and.
Have you listened to Answers WithHeld? It is a generally wonderful podcast but I think it's the episode "Why Does The Torah Allow Slavery?" which specifically talks about how the Torah retells itself and the insight we can glean from this. Also recommend "Was The World Really Created In Six Days?" because it talks about stories and narrative and what makes the Torah different from Horton Hears A Who. (And the whole thing. It's excellent.)
First, I don’t think the question should be “is the torah divine?” Because I think to be Jewish you have to find a way to answer “yes”. If you answer that question with a no - it’s hard, if not impossible, to be part of a Jewish community. I think the more interesting and relevant and important question is “in what ways is this divine and why and what does it mean for us today that it is?” It’s not actually obvious and clear what someone means by the term “divine” just by using it. The word divine is a placeholder for whatever that person’s theological beliefs are. I personally think the torah can be “divine” to an atheist- but their definition of how they understand divine is different. I know atheists might be offended by that statement but I think the Jewish atheists I know who maintain a respect for the torah are just using different words to describe the same feeling. I know this also feels opposite to how it should go cause some other religions prioritize on belief and theology to a greater extent. But I think it’s quite Jewish to say “we agree the torah is divine but everyone has a different way of understanding how and why and what we mean by that.”
Second, I am familiar with that podcast but haven’t heard every episode. I will have to go back and look for those you mentioned.
I really enjoyed how you are able to put such complex topics into such fun reads. A fantastic piece!
I am curious as to what your thoughts are on a Divinely hyperlinked text as opposed to an evolving text itself. I must admit I do not subscribe to the multiple authorship theory but I always read with an open mind.
Thanks! And thank you giving it consideration - I tried to be respectful towards all sides while still making my argument - and I know that can be a fine line. I do try to keep an open mind as well. If the text was not just divinely inspired as I frame it for myself- but truly and literally written at one time and by one hand- I would understand that to mean that it was written with intentionally conflicting stories to model the importance of conversation and debate which follows and is shown in later texts. I don’t read hebrew myself- so can only trust experts- but it would seem to me that many can agree there are different voices and styles in the Torah- the argument is just why and when they got there. And I understand that to be a valid view. We can never truly know the past. I am not so certain that I through out that possibility entirely.
My point here was that I understand my general view to be a bit less-obvious for some and I wanted to try to lay out the pieces together for others to at least consider. When I say that I generally lean toward the “different words were written at different times” theory - I am told I must be an atheist and secular. When I say, I do think that the words were divinely inspired, just that some people take some things too literally, and that the stories do hold meaning- that does not fit into most definitions of atheist or secular. Haha. Story to me is the vehicle through which the community of Jews across time have created meaning and touched divinity. And while that’s not going to be the focus of every post of mine - I felt it something to be transparent about as I try to write a blog about Jewish Storytelling.
I like the idea of an aggada Jew, even when the stories are bizarre or violent. I don’t think I’d be happy following all halachic laws.
Growing up, I was forced to accept that the Bible is literal truth, and that caused me great psychological distress. To this day I still can struggle with taking things too literally because of that mentality.
One of the reasons I love Judaism so much is that everything can be questioned and studied, but even so I think that should only go so far, otherwise our foundational text is rendered meaningless.
I take a rather secular view of the Torah, but I still believe it is a living text that has survived thousands of years and guides the Jewish people towards more meaningful lives, and that’s good enough for me.
I really admire your penmanship and this essay was no stranger to your unique ability to communicate well. Though I’m aligned with the Muslim faith, there are always, what I call ‘transferable’ ideas, hypotheses or schools of thought between faith-based traditions. In the Golden Age of Islam, there was fierce debate on the creation of the Qur’an as a divine literary masterpiece (perhaps even God’s magnum opus, albeit in the Arabic language) or as a spoken commentary/spoke word, again of Divine origin, so akin to speech or narration as events unfolded. Now, I am all for debate and discourse and perhaps even ideological pluralism, but it appears some dissenters were jailed for entertaining diverging views (Imam Hanbal), which I find extremist. Either way, a very stimulating analysis of the genesis of a timeless scripture!
Thank you!! I am not as familiar with the version of this debate within Islam - though it makes sense that there would be a similarly long and complicated history of varied opinions- so thank you for sharing. That is fascinating. We can each only write from what we know - but I am very glad that you found it relatable and relevant!
Such clear articulation, care, and delightful storytelling in this essay. Congratulations on this, and I’m excited to read more in this new year!
Thanks!! I really appreciate it.